Author Gary Renard On Love and Forgiveness, Mass Metaphysical Denial, And Jesus PT II

TIS: So you mentioned Arten & Pursah, who are two ascended masters that provide you with the dialogue for your books. Can you talk about your relationship with them and who they are/were?

GR: Sure, I think that the best way for people to think about Arten & Pursah, which took me years to realize, but I finally came to understand that what Arten & Pursah really are, are manifestations of the Holy Spirit. They're kind of like other things in the sense that this is a dream, and the Holy Spirit has to show up for us in some form in the dream. If the Holy Spirit didn't show up in the dream, we'd never be able to hear "It". So the Holy Spirit could take the form of a voice in your mind, which is the way that Helen Schucman (the scribe of A Course in Miracles), wrote down the Course, because she heard the voice in her mind and that's one way the Holy Spirit can show up in the dream. The Holy Spirit will show up however is most appropriate for each person, as whatever they can accept and understand.

For religious people, the Holy Spirit can show up in the dream as the Virgin Mary, and they'd say that's the Virgin Mary, but what it really is, is it's the Holy Spirit showing up in the dream as the Virgin Mary, because that's something they can accept and understand. I've taught in Mexico a number of times and they're really into Our Lady of Guadalupe, which is the Virgin Mary showing up in New Mexico City, and for them that's Our Lady of Guadalupe, but what it really is, is the Holy Spirit showing up that way. For some people, the Holy Spirit can show up as an angel because that's what they can accept and understand without fear. That however, is not really an angel, but a symbol of the Holy Spirit showing up in the dream as an angel.

At one point ACIM is talking about the Holy Spirit and it says "His is the voice for God and is therefore taken form. This form is not his reality." So the reality of the Holy Spirit is spirit, which is exactly the same as God, but then that spirit shows up in the dream, and this is not God, but the Holy Spirit, which you can also think of as your memory of God. You can never really lose it because it's still there in the mind. In fact, you can think of the mind as having three parts. There's what the Course calls "you", it's not the real you, but it's the part that thinks it's separated itself from its source. You could call this part the mind. Then you have two other things in the mind, you have the Holy Spirit and the ego, which are both vying for your attention.

The Holy Spirit of course knows it's going to win eventually, as it's seen everything that's happened from the beginning of time until the end. Then you also have the ego, and it's like you're watching this movie, and you have the Holy Spirit sitting on one side of you, and the ego on the other. The ego is trying to get you to listen to its interpretation of the movie, which consists of judgment, condemnation, and guilt. All you have to do is turn on your TV screen and you'll see a beautiful example of judgment, guilt and condemnation which goes on forever, or you can see a message of love and forgiveness which is often ridiculed by people in the world because they think they are their ego. They're not, but they think they are. So they become confused and think they are their body and an individual person.

So for me, the Holy Spirit showed up as these two people sitting on my living room couch as Arten and Pursah, and it took me a couple of years to realize they are really just symbols, or manifestations of the Holy Spirit showing up in the dream to educate me on how to go home. That's the Holy Spirit's job, it leads you home, literally. So that's what they are doing for many people and that's fine with me. I realized I'm not the teacher in my books. I like to think I've become a good student. They actually had me use a quotation, right at the beginning of The Disappearance of the Universe, from the Course, which explains how they actually show up here, which says, "There are those who have the mystical christ  God directly, retaining no trace of worldly limits, remembering their own identity perfectly." So that's an explanation of enlightened masters. They become enlightened and remember their own identity perfectly, and the best way to do that is to see it in others.

The Course says about Jesus, "Jesus was the name of the man who saw the face of Christ in all his brothers and remembered God". That's how you remember God, how you remember your true identity, by seeing it in others. Arten and Pursah also did that, not when they were Thomas and Thaddeus, who were two of the original disciples two thousand years ago, though they certainly learned a lot at that time. They achieved their enlightenment in a different lifetime, as "Arten and Pursah", and now they're out of here, because once you're out of here, you're out of here, you never come back. The quote I used earlier from ACIM once again says, "There are those who have reached God directly, retaining no trace of worldly limits, remembering their own identity perfectly." It then says, "These might be called the teachers of teachers, because although they are no longer visible, their image can yet be called upon, and they will appear anywhere it is helpful for them to do so" and that's the Holy Spirit.

So what we're seeing, whether it's Arten or Pursah, or you or me, or our wives and friends, what we're seeing is what the Course would call an image that is there in the dream, but it's not a real person. It's actually something that is totally different. What that person really is, is way beyond that, they are something that is bigger than the universe of time and space. It's something that can't even be contained by the universe of time and space, but the Holy Spirit takes on form in order to communicate with us. The Holy Spirit can even show up in our dreams at night and teach us there. In fact, that's one of the Holy Spirits ways of teaching us.

So whatever way the Holy Spirit shows up, it will be the best way for each individual person. The Holy Spirit does not only speak perfect English like in ACIM. The Holy Spirit will talk to you in whatever language works the best for you. If it's Pig Latin, then it's Pig Latin. It doesn't matter what it is, what matters is that the Holy Spirit is communicating with us. If it didn't, we'd never be able to find our way out of here, but because it does, whether it shows up as Arten and Pursah, or the Virgin Mary, it doesn't really matter. All that matters is that we're being communicated to by the Holy Spirit in such a way that we can be led home.

TIS: Right on. So Arten and Pursah also offer a very different version of Jesus than is most commonly understood, and accepted, by popular society today. Can you talk about Jesus as they knew him?

GR: Well the way that they describe him, that they actually get into more in the third book (which should be out in the spring), but to them, it was surprising how normal he was. Obviously, he had thousands of people at some times who wanted to come and hear him speak, and he was thought of as being very special, but he didn't think of himself as being special. He lived a normal life. He was married, though he didn't have any children like some people think. He knew how to have normal relationships, which is why I encourage people to have normal relationships, even if you are what the world would call "spiritual". It's OK to have normal relationships because that's where you're going to find your forgiveness lessons and opportunities.